Interview
with Frank Viola on "Jesus Manifesto"
by Kelly Deppen
This
is an interview done by Kelly Deppen from Bridges Revelatory Ministry.
1.
Frank, you are a real present-tense guy sent to Reveal the Eternal
Mystery. How is life in the paradox?
Paul
was uniquely chosen by God to reveal the "mystery of the ages" in
Ephesians and Colossians. Len Sweet and I are simply bringing out what Paul
wrote to a 21st century audience and doing it by using a lot of word imagery.
Consequently, Jesus Manifesto reads almost like fiction (the style is very
right brain), even though it's a non-fiction book based squarely on the Bible.
Jesus
is the Ultimate Paradox as He is both human and divine. The incarnation is
"the absolute paradox" as one writer put it. As such, the Christian
life is very paradoxical - you have to die to live, you have to give to
receive, you must lower yourself to rise, etc. Every Christian lives in this
tension.
2.
I am a champion of the Truth that Jesus Christ is Reality for those in
Him. In Him we live and move and have
our beings. In Jesus Manifesto you
discuss the fact that the real essence of humanity comes in walking in Jesus,
the quintessential human being. I love
that. To what degree are you willing to
cop to being a mystic?
The
word "mystic" is a clay word. It's been shaped and molded by
different people to mean very different things. You can condemn a person with
the word or honor them by it. I personally don't like the words
"mystic" or "mystical" because they can mean so many
different things, some of them very unChristian. So I prefer the word
"spiritual."
Our
walk with Jesus is real. It is also spiritual. Jesus is in the Spirit today,
and He can be known and experienced. In this sense, the Christian faith is
mystical. Meaning, it's spiritual and real rather than abstract and simply
intellectual. Yet it is based solidly on the testimony of Scripture and will
not break nor violate what the Scriptures teach.
I
like what A.W. Tozer said about the word "mystic," and I completely
resonate with it:
"Some
of my friends good-humoredly - and some a little bit severely - have called me
a 'mystic.' Well I'd like to say this about any mysticism I may suppose to
have. If an arch-angel from heaven were to come, and were to start giving me,
telling me, teaching me, and giving me instruction, I'd ask him for the text.
I'd say, 'Where's it say that in the Bible? I want to know.' And I would insist
that it was according to the scriptures, because I do not believe in any
extra-scriptural teachings, nor any anti-scriptural teachings, or any
sub-scriptural teachings. I think we ought to put the emphasis where God puts
it, and continue to put it there, and to expound the scriptures, and stay by
the scriptures. I wouldn't - no matter if I saw a light above the light of the
sun, I'd keep my mouth shut about it 'til I'd checked with Daniel and
Revelation and the rest of the scriptures to see if it had any basis in truth.
And if it didn't, I'd think I'd just eaten something I shouldn't, and I
wouldn't say anything about it. Because I don't believe in anything that is
unscriptural or that is anti-scripture."
3.
The scholarship in Manifesto sets a very high standard. What is the mix or ratio of scholarship to
revelation that went into writing the book with Len, and how did the two
streams come together for you?
The
book may appear to be scholarly to some only because it has endnotes and we quote
some theologians here and there, but it's a very popularly written book and the
reading level is quite low. We tried to write it so that a high school student
could understand it and absorb its message.
We're
finding that a lot of readers of Christian fiction love the book because it
uses a lot of imagery, word pictures, and metaphors. At the same time, we quote
theologians and philosophers to make certain points and there is a ton of
Scripture in it as well.
Revelation
and scholarship go hand and hand. You can think of revelation as insight that
is revealed to our hearts by the Holy Spirit. You can think of scholarship as
that which is based in an accurate interpretation of the Bible. So if
revelation is really from the Spirit, it will have the scholarship of the Bible
behind it.
In
our book, we are writing mostly to the heart rather than the head. For this
reason, many people have told us that they have wept through the book and have
encountered the Lord in a fresh way while reading it.
4.
How did the revelation that you and Len were to expand beyond the online
Manifesto come? Better yet, what did
Jesus say to you?
There
was no audible voice or vision. We just felt burdened by the Lord to write what
was on our hearts about the absolute glory, power, majesty, beauty, and
staggering enormity of our Lord Jesus and to give a clarion call to the church
to make Him absolutely central and supreme in a practical way. When we wrote
the book, our burden was released.
5.
I love that Jesus did not choose to be President of any Political
Program, and He rejected being appointed Grand Poo-bah of a Religion. The simple Truth that His Kingdom is not of
this world is powerfully and carefully portrayed in Jesus Manifesto. We fell for a counterfeit reality called
religion and now need to repent. Frank, what is your leadership role in this
transition, now that Manifesto is published?
What's next for you in this initiative?
For
the last 22 years, I've been meeting in organic churches. I've been planting
them for more than a decade. These are churches that are very much like the New
Testament vision of church, where Jesus is Head and everyone functions
according to their particular gifts. They are churches that function as living
organisms rather than as institutional organizations (hence the word
"organic"). I've written about organic churches extensively in my
book 'Reimagining Church'.
Jesus
Manifesto contains a good bit of the message that I preach when founding a
church on Jesus Christ. According to Paul, Jesus is the only foundation upon
which a church should be built.
6.
In Jesus Manifesto you state, ".this church is a new
polis." We are a new race of
people, however we seem to be a little schizophrenic and believe that an old
race of leadership, and worn out, ineffective leadership systems can
effectively lead this new Jesus-population.
What must happen to change this?
Can you describe some characteristics of a new breed of leadership? Who will lead this Colony from the other
realm?
True
leaders are those who truly follow Jesus. The role of a true leader, then, is
to equip God's people to know the Lord, to follow Him, and to function in
ministry in a corporate way. One of the things we take dead aim at in the book
is the zeal that so many Christians have to become leaders. "Leadership
principles" and "leadership training" has been put on the
throne, and Jesus has been made a footnote. Let's make our business knowing
Christ in the depths, and leadership which flows out of followership will take
care of itself.
7.
A hard line, tough love quote from Manifesto: "This is a profoundly grievous misuse of
the Bible." [To use the Bible as a
recipe book, a formulation and pat answer for God across all situations, across
time.] The implication is to make God
predictable and manageable by man. In the past two decades many in
the Prophetic Movement have made a similar misuse of the rhema/prophetic
Word of God. Much of the prophecy was
self-aggrandizing-prophecies of personal success, Swiss chalets, and world-wide
apostolic anointings. I take the liberty to re-phrase: "This has been a profoundly grievous
misuse of the Revelation of Holy Spirit."
I feel a personal mandate to return Prophetic Ministry to the
unadulterated Testimony of Jesus Christ.
Frank, what is your advice for this turn-around? What breed of leadership will this require as
you see it?
The
Holy Spirit has one main job: It is to reveal, to glorify, to magnify, and make
real and living in one's life the Lord Jesus Christ. All the arrows of the
Spirit point to Jesus. We show this quite clearly in the book.
True
prophecy, therefore, will always reveal Christ in some way. John said in the
book of Revelation, "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
What
was the content of the Old Testament prophets? It was Jesus. So today, when
someone prophesies under the Spirit's anointing, the content of their prophecy
will reveal, glorify, exalt, make known and living the Lord Jesus Christ. This
truth is often missed among certain movements today that have put
"prophetic ministry" on the throne instead of Jesus Himself.
8.
I am excited to see the impact of Manifesto-manifest! Can you give us any early reports? How do you hope the book impacts the church and
the world?
Since
its release, the book has reached #6 on Amazon.com (the largest bookstore in
the world which carries over 9 million titles). This was rather amazing to us.
The book is in its third week and it's still the #1 Christian book on Amazon. We
are humbled and surprised, but very blessed that God has chosen to breathe on
the book. Thankfully, we get reports almost daily by people who have been moved
by the book and how it's caused them to see and know their Lord like never
before.
Among
other things, they can download the two new worship songs that Christian
artists recorded for the book. And there's also a way for readers to SIGN THE
MANIFESTO.
9.
The church is the expression of Jesus in the Realm of Earth, but
currently only a very tiny percentage of 'churched' Christians have any outlet
for expressing Him within the church walls.
Something is very wrong with this picture. Frank, what can take the traditional churches
from the paradigm of the one man show into the chaordic Voice like Many Waters
depicted in Revelation?
In
Jesus Manifesto, we don't talk about church structure. But I do answer this
question in my book, 'Finding Organic Church.' It's a complicated situation,
but it can and has been done.
10.
Romans 8:19 is the cry of my heart and no doubt Jesus' as well: "All of creation groans for the
manifestation of the sons of God."
All creation needs to see Jesus come in His Glory through His
people. Perhaps in the charismatic
movement we have wanted to see His Glory prematurely? Perhaps we focused on the Glory and the
effects upon us, rather than creating a New Bethany-a community for Him. Did we look for gold dust before giving Jesus
a place to lay His head? Can you foresee a prophetic Bethany?
In
the book, we have a whole chapter on Bethany. Bethany was a little village just
outside the city of Jerusalem. It was the home of Mary, Martha, Lazarus, and
Simon.
Bethany
was the only place on earth where Jesus was received, loved, and where His needs
were met. Bethany is a picture of God's idea of what the church ought to be.
My
main calling is to plant churches that are spiritual Bethanies. Churches where
Christ is supreme, preeminent, valued, loved, known, and expressed by the whole
body together. So the chapter on Bethany is not theoretical; it's been my
experience.
I
hope that such churches become more prevalent in the future. Though I don't
know that they will ever become hugely popular because they run against human
traditions and so much of the world's spirit and framework, not to mention that
they challenge what the fallen self stands for. For those who are interested in
this kind of Christ-saturated church life, they may want to take a look at our
Mediography which contains many free messages, articles, and resources. If they
have iTunes, they can subscribe to the CHRIST IS ALL podcast freely.
To order your copy of "Jesus Manifesto"
please visit Identity Network's Store.
Frank Viola
Kelly Deppen
